Curse

dgb · Mar 25, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

This is something that I've been thinking about for a while re. the lack of attention in general for PVP in Guild Wars. It's based on a lot of assumptions, but I will clearly state them and I will try to make them favourable to Arena Net, however if someone has the capability to flesh them out further please inform me.

The base conclusion of this is, it is unprofitable for Arena Net to actively maintain a strong PVP game and so they have made a business decision to not sink further resources into it.

First off, lets look at some numbers. From my count, there were 262 teams initially in the Celestial Tournament. If we figure that the average PVP guild has ~12 players in it (I think this is generous personally), then we can start looking at an estimate of the total PVP community. However CT teams alone means nothing as there are plenty of other players out there, HA guilds etc, transient players, so instead of working off of 262x12 players, I'm going to work off 500x12 players, almost doubling the amount of Guilds. Again, this is being very generous, it's not taking into account scrub PVE guilds who entered the CT just to be whipped repeatedly who cannot reasonably be called part of the PVP community.

Working on those numbers, there is a total of 6000 active PVP players out there. That's the whole community. I've heard the number and I *think* I've seen Gaile say that there are three million Guild Wars accounts. Commited, strong PVP players make up 0.2% of the Guild Wars player base. The rest is PVE exclusive or PVE with dabble into scrub PVP (Alliance Battles, Fort Aspenwood, Random Arena).

Let's talk about revenue streams now. A Guild Wars campaign sells for USD50 on release and arives every six months (yes I realise EotN is going to change this but I'm just trying to give people an idea of the numbers here). Every decent PVP player buys the new release, because you can't play without it effectively. They do this twice a year. USD50*2*6000 = USD60000. That's assuming that they actually get the entire USD50 back, which they don't, but lets ignore retail profit etc. for the moment. The revenue stream provided by the PVP community is USD60,000 per year.

Ok, we have numbers, so what does this mean. At its core, it means this. If it costs more than USD60,000 a year to maintain medium to high end PVP play (HA, TA and GVG), then it's unprofitable and Arena Net would be better off not doing it. Without knowing the employment details, I would suspect that Arena Net is paying out far over that. Given that they employ multiple staff who work mostly on PVP, there isn't much hope that tehy could scrape in under that 60,000 mark.

So where do they go from here? Arena Net aren't stupid, they make a decision that maintaining mid-high end PVP is not profitable and they are going to cut it. However rather than coming out and saying that, instead they release dribbles of information, run easy to put together tournaments on the fly, promise of better things. There's a lot of cynicism in the community, but there are a large number of apologists who think the sun shines out of Arena Net HQ. Between the apologists and the middle ground who isn't cynical, they maybe retain 33% of that playerbase to buy the next installment, at effectively zero cost to them. So now they're getting a revenue stream for near free.

What does this mean to you? If you agree with my reasoning above, then you resign yourself to PVP in this game being dead. You may as well cut your losses and run now. It isn't profitable for Arena Net and they aren't a charity.

If you are an employee of Arena Net and are employed in a majority on PVP projects (Morello? Lulu? Izzy?), then I would make sure I have a very up to date CV. Your division is about to be cut.

What are the criticisms of the above logic.

Well I haven't taken into account the marketing they get out of running Guild Wars PVP events like GWFC and GWWC. To be honest, I don't think they get good value out of them when you include the sunk costs of flying people, prizes etc. I can't see how they can generate enough sales to overcome these overheads but if someone wants to work out some numbers, go for it.

There are a lot of frictional errors in the numbers. Exchange rates, server costs etc. I accept this, and I've tried to make them rosy for Arena Net, rather than taking the worst case scenarios. In my scenario above, there are no costs from PVP players on servers, everyone pays a flat USD50 (ie. nobody gets it cheaper), all the USD50 comes back to Arena Net etc.

There is market potential out there that isn't realised. This is about the greatest criticism that I can see. This game could have been huge on the PVP side but lack of marketing and a slow approach to dealing wtih issues has stopped that. Any chance of capturing that segment of the market appears dead now as the PVP community is disintegrating, but it is conceivable that the Arena Net management team could blindly beleive they can still realise this.

There are 6000 teams on the ladder, not 500. This is bunk. The majority of teams below rank 750 are scrubway, PVE guilds who have five people sitting around in the guild hall, decide to grab three heroes and hit enter mission. You can't count these as main PVP players. Above 750, there's stupid amounts of smurfing, inertia etc. I know of three guilds alone above this level that haven't played reguarly, were pugs and are just sitting there. If the QQ forum is to be beleived, iQ make up half of the top 50. The ladder just isn't a good measure of PVP activity because of the inertia and the multiple account problem.

Note to Gaile: If you are reading this, don't bother just blindly claiming I'm wrong. If you want to attack the logic with hard figures, feel free, however flat statements with no back-up will not wash anymore. You're going to have to start proving that it's not the case, by delivering in order to convince people I suspect. There's a significant chunk of the PVP community who honestly doesn't care about "gaile-babble" because in practice it is meaningless.

icedwhitemocha · Mar 25, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

If the QQ forum is to be beleived, iQ make up half of the top 50.

I lol'd

iQ OWNZZZZZZZZZ

As far as my thoughts, I think your numbers are quite possibly waaay off due to the reasons you mentioned but that your conclusions are probably correct nonetheless. PvP in this game isn't near what it could have been, and I have a feeling GW2 isn't going to bode well for PvPers.

AusEqualsFtw · Mar 25, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

PvP will never die in Guild Wars, its renowned for its PvP aspect to the game.

You put a fair point though, look at the additions to the game with each new chapter. PvP only seems to be getting 1 new arena with each chapter release whilst PvE has alot more put into it.

Although i do believe Anet has not turned their backs on PvP, Observer mode was a very nice addition to keeping the competitive side to guild wars alive.

And if you ask me..anyone who truly loves guild wars is a PvP'er. I could say with confidence that most PvE'ers give up after they have spent a few months with the game. PvP'ers stay with it the game because of the PvP aspect.
To those about to pvp, I salute you

DreamWind · Mar 25, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

There is market potential out there that isn't realised. This is about the greatest criticism that I can see. This game could have been huge on the PVP side but lack of marketing and a slow approach to dealing wtih issues has stopped that. Any chance of capturing that segment of the market appears dead now as the PVP community is disintegrating, but it is conceivable that the Arena Net management team could blindly beleive they can still realise this.

Ok time for my pissed off PvP player post.

Yea I agree with your entire post, but this part is the reason Anet pisses me off so bad recently. I guess it just shows the power of advertising (or maybe something else that I won't say now) in this world, when in my opinion, the CLEARLY CLEARLY inferior part of the game (pve) has a huge following in comparison to the CLEARLY CLEARLY better part of the game (pvp).

Now I am not saying PvE sucks here because I have played my share of it. But the PvP in Guild Wars just had so much damn potential that was never realized.

So I read the Guild Wars 2 article in PC gamer and of course it is about 95% PvE talk. PvP in Guild Wars 1 has already gone downhill, and it is pretty clear that Guild Wars 2 is not going to be PvP marketed. I am seriously done with Guild Wars unless there is some kind of major overhaul (hint: there never will be). I guess we can't blame Anet at this point for appealing to the masses, but I am really aggravated that the "real" Guild Wars never shined like it should have.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 25, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Look at it this way - the cost of the GWWC events themselves was easily 20 times what the GWWC participants paid for Guild Wars. If you look purely at the people who went to Germany and Taipei, it's obvious that Arenanet is taking a huge loss hosting those events.

But then you have to consider the marketing The promotional power that comes from having a $50,000 tournament in an exotic location. Those who have been to an Arenanet tournament know that it is, at its core, a promotional event. Thousands of people see teams winning thousands of dollars playing Guild Wars, and it inspires them to buy the game in an attempt to be the best.

In every game, most of the community ends up being scrubs that the top-end players never notice. That's just the nature of the game. While the rank 5000 PvE guilds might not seem to us like part of the PvP community, they've played GvG and probably have their own communities. The PvP 'discussion' on GWO is a thriving example of a PvP community made up almost entirely of bad players.

You're right that the higher-end PvP community isn't paying for itself. However, Arenanet gets money not from our purchases, but from their ability to brag about their competitive PvP and promotional events and fabulous prizes. Competitive PvP is one of those things you just can't fake, and if the top end of the game was completely dominated by gimmicks and Heroway, the effects would reach much farther than the 500 accounts in the celestial tournament.

dgb · Mar 25, 2007, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I'm going to split your post up Squidget because it's diverse enough that it makes sense to handle each area seperately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Look at it this way - the cost of the GWWC events themselves was easily 20 times what the GWWC participants paid for Guild Wars. If you look purely at the people who went to Germany and Taipei, it's obvious that Arenanet is taking a huge loss hosting those events.

But then you have to consider the marketing The promotional power that comes from having a $50,000 tournament in an exotic location. Those who have been to an Arenanet tournament know that it is, at its core, a promotional event. Thousands of people see teams winning thousands of dollars playing Guild Wars, and it inspires them to buy the game in an attempt to be the best.

I can see this argument, it does generate sales holding the tournaments. But at the same time, spending that money sunk into the tournments could be used in other, more focused and controllable ways to generate interest. Also there's a risk involved with tournaments. I mean if I'm wandering past in Leipzig and I sit and watch iQ sit in their Guild Lord area for 15 minutes I'm going to write the game off as being boring as hell.

Essentially you're telling me that maintaining a game area (mid-high end PVP) is all some sort of elaborate marketing campaign. I just can't see it. Given how much it would cost, you're better off running an *actual* campaign instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In every game, most of the community ends up being scrubs that the top-end players never notice. That's just the nature of the game. While the rank 5000 PvE guilds might not seem to us like part of the PvP community, they've played GvG and probably have their own communities. The PvP 'discussion' on GWO is a thriving example of a PvP community made up almost entirely of bad players.

I don't deny this at all. My point is, this area would turn up no matter the ammount of maintenance into PVP. When I went from being a PVE only player to casual PVP, I didn't know about imbalances and I didn't care. The guys at rank 3000 don't care that Jade Isle is imbalanced. You can combine them into one giant PVP community if you like, but that grouping is non-sensical as the needs of the mid-high end are so disparate from the low end set. The groups are not symbiotic, for the most they are completely ignorant of each other.

Specifically, to maintain the low-end PVP community, Arena Net needs to do nothing. It goes on and on, no matter how imbalanced it is.

To maintain the mid-high end PVP community it needs regular balance updates, fixes for things like Jade Isle, work on HA etc. It's high maintenance.

If Arena Net stopped the maintenance of the mid-high end (which I beleive they have), the rest keeps going on without a thought. The revenue stream from there, derives not from casual PVP, but from PVE. To those players, PVP is a side-issue, an interesting diversion you may say. I don't know anybody who says their main reason for playing the game is Random Arenas and rank 3000 GVG. Do you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You're right that the higher-end PvP community isn't paying for itself. However, Arenanet gets money not from our purchases, but from their ability to brag about their competitive PvP and promotional events and fabulous prizes. Competitive PvP is one of those things you just can't fake, and if the top end of the game was completely dominated by gimmicks and Heroway, the effects would reach much farther than the 500 accounts in the celestial tournament.

I just don't buy that competitive PVP as a marketing tool is enough on its own to justify maintaining a very high maintenance 6000 member community (remember, 0.2% of the playerbase). If the mid-high end PVP set was a marginal proposition on its own, then sure, it would be worth having and push it over the line, but its not. Its a complete loss maker to maintain. Do you honestly beleive that Arena Net gets 100,000 sales out of being able to put competitive PVP on the back of a box? I think you're overstating how much people care about it to be honest. Go up to the Riverside Inn, put up a poll saying "Did the fact that Guild Wars had a competitive PVP scene significantly influence your decision to buy the game?" with a supplementary question "Would that competitive scene dying stop you from playing the game?". I suspect that you'll find that most people just don't care.

The marketing line is interesting though, but I don't think it's a viable reason alone for Arena Net to put the effort into maintaining the mid-high end community.

Also as a second question, I'm curious how you feel. You're a lot closer to the high end than I am Squidget, do you think, that Arena Net is making an honest effort to keep the mid-high end PVP experience a quality experience, or do you think it's a token effort?

Riotgear · Mar 25, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

The reason GW2's promotion is so heavily PvE-oriented should be obvious, it's not because GW's PvE community is bigger or even that people buy GW for PvE.

It's because GW's PvE is extremely lacking, which has been one of the biggest problems in drawing in new players. If you're not interested in the PvP, why would you pay $50 for what is really just an extremely basic single-player RPG, which just happens to have a coop mode and require an Internet connection? You can beat the Nightfall campaign in a few days, maybe a week or two if you really have no clue how to play.

PvP is significantly harder to advertise as well, because there isn't much you can say that potential new players will be able to understand. The only real things that can be advertised are the game modes and class combos (which is why Hamstorm was advertised on the Prophecies box).

In general, people need to be convinced that there's $50 worth of fun in the box. The easiest thing to advertise, by far, is an "epic adventure."

Wichtel · Mar 25, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

I just don't buy that competitive PVP as a marketing tool is enough on its own to justify maintaining a very high maintenance 6000 member community (remember, 0.2% of the playerbase).

I am sorry to say it, but you are comparing apples and oranges. First of all you use the CT as a base for active PvP players, but that is highly inaccurate. Their are a lot of top Guilds who are not playing (like Cel) and theire are thounds of players in <1000 Guilds. Alot of them have maybe one or two games, but there are a lot of Guilds actualy playing too. And they care about imbalances cause they wanna win too. I know that because we fought our way down to Rank 7000+ and up till ~1000 and play more than 15 GvG per week. There were a lot of Rit Spikes on Jade, a lot of EuroSplits on split maps and they adapt to the meta down there too.
There are a lot of HA players you didnt count in, and they get to see the major imbalances first (and whine about it cause thats all they can do

), cause you cant split in HA. There are a lot more active pvp players that care about this game than you think. The biggest connection between them is the observer mode, i would not play this game anymore if it was not there. And the big tournaments work in a similar way. You see some people do cool stuff and you wanna do it too.
But the biggist mistake is that you compare this 6000 Players with all Acounts. You need the number of active Players not sold accounts.

DreamWind · Mar 25, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wichtel

I am sorry to say it, but you are comparing apples and oranges. First of all you use the CT as a base for active PvP players, but that is highly inaccurate.

But the biggist mistake is that you compare this 6000 Players with all Acounts. You need the number of active Players not sold accounts.

Firstly, I think he is referring to people who MAINLY log on Guild Wars to PvP. Sure there are a lot of mostly PvE players who will play PvP once in a while, but that isn't what we are talking about here. Those people fit into the PvE community, NOT the PvP one.

Secondly, I will be even more generous with the numbers. Let's say of the 3 million accounts, 1/3 or less are active (being generous). Now lets take that 6000 PvP players and double it...no triple it (again being really generous). Even after all that, you STILL only have 2% PvP players.

So I guess I don't blame Anet for all this marketing to PvE players, and new players, and all the other crap that I am not. TBH, reading that Guild Wars 2 article I felt pissed to all hell. All real PvP players know that GW1 PvP has been going down the crapper for quite a while and GW2 doesn't sound much better (oh my god new terrain!). Besides, how the hell can we expect Anet to fix GW2 when they haven't even frikken fixed part 1 yet. I am now convinced that it is impossible to maintain a worthy PvP game when a sidegame is too popular (and yes, to me PvE was always the sidegame of Guild Wars).

krakenstar · Mar 25, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

I think that for the most part, people who likes to play PvP type gamers play FPS and RTS. Their perception (the PvPers) is that MMO and RPGs are for pacifists, and people with no skill. Generally speaking, that perception is not too far off the mark (about the pacifist part anyway). Most people playing MMORPG with PvP elements prefer to out-number, out-level, out-gear, (or even out Build) their opponent, rather than to out-skill/out-smart them.

(Not to say that FPS & RTS players are more l33t. Most are scrubs and 13 yo haxors of the greatest magnitude)

But for the majority, the pacifists in MMORPGs, they simply hate dying. They are *drawn* to RPGs in general because there are so little "deaths" in comparison to all the other games. The fear of death is so irrationally strong that they loath to play PvP of any format, or can only handle it in tiny doses.

A-Net tried to break this, thinking if you build it they will come. After Prophecies they probably got a good dose of reality. Is the market there? Not unless ANet makes the market. I think the numbers told them otherwise.

They are *really* trying to bring people into PvP. They created simpler PvP formats with every release. In Factions they bought in AB, which is very successful for FORCING people try it out; to feel what its like to fight against other people maybe for the first time *every* beyond Microsoft Hearts. In NF they brought in HvH in the hopes that perhaps some people are not use to playing cooperatively and wish to "duel".

All that is fine and dandy, and nice try. However, the biggest hurdle, one which they probably will never overcome is the knowledge gap and learning curve required to actually do PvP properly in Guild Wars after 3 releases. Compared to FPS and RTS, the learning curve required is much *much* bigger. This is made only worse by its veterans keep leaving, and few are willing to teach or write guides. So Anet hired someone to write it for them.

That's my take. Can we get more PvP working? We got to bring our FPS friends to come and try it out at least, we all got them I think. But they are notorious for not even bother to read the manual behind the keymap. It's a hard problem with no easy solutions.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 25, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

I saw the GWWC and GWFC on TV (Gameplay HD ftw), so I'd say that they're getting some good marketing power out of it. It was complete with fancy team histories and Izzy commenting on games (though it made Izzy sound like a retard because it was obviously designed for people who don't play guild wars).

Alex the Great · Mar 25, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

if anet was to cut high level pvp i for one would be extreamly angry.
You are forgeting that the vast majority of players arn't one way or the other.
I love the story of pve......but killing midless enemies gets boring so my guild and I have some fun gvg marathons every once in a while.

Dzan · Mar 25, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Here is another way to look at it drawing the age old Magic the Gathering comparison...

Magic has several million active players worldwide. They have about 150 players who are full time professions and another 1000 or so who are on the cusp. The rest are casual "scrub" players. Yet Magic drops millions of dollars into the professional tour.

Why? They have figured out that the pro tour is what drives the game even at the casual level. For whatever reason, Anet hasnt been able to connect high level pvp to the casual player's interest and it has been to their detriment.

FoxBat · Mar 25, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Why? They have figured out that the pro tour is what drives the game even at the casual level. For whatever reason, Anet hasnt been able to connect high level pvp to the casual player's interest and it has been to their detriment.

Frankly, a lot of type 2 constructed decks don't require all that much skill to play. The mistakes made when playing many decks are objective matters of forgetfulness/attention and not mere judgement errors. About the only thing you have to think about in most aggro decks from the beginning to now is when to save some critters in your hand to survive a Wrath. As much as people whine about BuildWars, it really is 90% of constructed MTG which is a lot more than GW. That means copying good decks will get you pretty far, and the rest is knowing how to predict the local metagame and tune your deck appropriately.

By contrast, newbs trying to copy even something like Jagged Bones in the day are going to end up taking a lot more defeats than they would playing 4x Searing Flames. So a lot of new pvpers settle into builds that take less skill to play because they are effective for them, even though such builds would be bad choices for good players. Then they get stuck in that rut and can't progress beyond that. (See: IWAY, VIMWay, etc.) Our guild does relatively casual GvG hovering around 1000 rating, while others we are friends with and have been doing this longer are in the 900s. The main difference is our leader refuses to run gimmicks and pulls builds mostly from observer mode, while they try things like meteor shower "spike" or 5 thumpers.

There's also of course the fact that it's much easier for semi-casual players to get to a local weekly tournament or major regional one, and not have to coordinate their schedules with 7 other players to do so.

red orc · Mar 25, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

The numbers are somewhat higher than you think:
There are more than 10k active guilds on the ladder. Each one containing 8 or more players who put 100$ each (or more) for buying all 3 expansions. If PVP did not exist they would quit after one game. So youre looking at:
100$ * 8 * 10k = 8m$
It is not what makes a profit, but it covers expenses and provide marketing. So it may hold for some time more. While the benefit to the player is much much more. I would guess that to make PVP a mikling cow like PVE you would need to ask players for monthly fee. ;( what am I saying here erpiguert956u=5uew[ jergirtgjrt[u5niu34v-i340] 4r ]4ok rv=i3409

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Mar 25, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I feel like everyone who is arguing about the numbers is missing the entire point. The fact is that dedicated PvP players are in the vast minority (OXYMORON). That is all the OP is trying to get at. There are not 10k active guilds on the ladder, unless you consider records like 10-8 an active guild... I'm in an active GvG guild, and we did 10 GvGs just last NIGHT. If a guild in the top 1000 has a 10-8 record, then what is going on with guilds at rank 10,000? Just because there are players who have played in a GvG doesn't mean they're active PvP players. It means they're PvErs who wanted to try out GvG, end of story. I simply refuse to believe that anyone who calls themselves an "active PvPer" has a GvG record of 10-8.

Scrimbul · Mar 25, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

The numbers are somewhat higher than you think:
There are more than 10k active guilds on the ladder. Each one containing 8 or more players who put 100$ each (or more) for buying all 3 expansions. If PVP did not exist they would quit after one game. So youre looking at:
100$ * 8 * 10k = 8m$
It is not what makes a profit, but it covers expenses and provide marketing. So it may hold for some time more. While the benefit to the player is much much more. I would guess that to make PVP a mikling cow like PVE you would need to ask players for monthly fee. ;( what am I saying here erpiguert956u=5uew[ jergirtgjrt[u5niu34v-i340] 4r ]4ok rv=i3409

I think someone broke red orc.

I think the fear of death is a valid one for some players, more because they get attached to their avatar and are afraid to lose something permanently. PVP in it's purest form IMHO does allow you multiple attempts, but you pay a price for losing. This was pretty much exemplified in the old old old days with MUDs, where if you died your opponent was free to loot your corpse and do whatever he wanted with it, including destroying all your gear.

To a certain point you have to lessen those penalties if you want any remotely consistent competition, and Guild Wars did a good job of that initially. The rewards became more about respect from the rest of the PVP community and less about who they crushed for their latest win.

I think the market for purist PVP in today's form as Guild Wars and the likes of RTS strategy games have defined them (FPS games are too much physical twitch and not enough 'mental twitch' as the Fury marketing campaign defined it) is difficult to market for, period. The players, even ones from other competitive communities, don't necessarily understand the value and depth behind a community *you're* creating, except perhaps in regards to sports simulations.

Not only that but as the age range of gamers widens, you get more people demanding more flexible options. Players want to be able to log in for 15 minutes, play a game, then go switch their laundry and settle down to watch Scrubs. That in itself is difficult to market for a PVP game as well, as the niche appeal behind PVP play, regardless of it's advertised features, is indeed the fact that competitive play requires time and dedication.

Guild Wars only made a dent in this hurdle, it didn't completely make this possible. Those players who are anti-social for the simple reason no one they can find to make friends with from the PvErs or scrub PvP refuse to take the time to plan things out. And why should they? It was hard enough to get the 8 people together to be able to hit the enter mission button to begin with, and the planning phase is no fun. So pretty much both these people who are either unable to or refuse to put in the effort to get any better are the people who will eventually lose interest in the game and leave, and one of these groups is casually shrugging off their open stupidity as 'it's just for fun'.

The players that have indeed come into their own with groups of people who are willing to make the effort to unlock skills, become UAX without using the unbearably slow PvE, and entered the mid to high level PvP arenas are now at the top of the plateau. Those of us that are there, or those of us that, like myself, the select few who are listening objectively to those who are there, are realizing that not only is everything as bright as one had thought initially, but the road being so difficult for other people due to both the imbalances Anet doesn't have the resources to fix as well as the age old problem of other available folks dragging them down are rotting the game from the inside. One can be fixed by simply finding a more productive group to latch onto and show sincere effort.

The other is really totally out of their hands. The constant dissatisfaction with HA has been the most stark evidence of that as well as out of four new classes since the game's inception, only one is fairly clear in it's identity and many classes now overlap one another with poor man's versions of other class abilities. The identity of Elementalists has been up in the air since the release of Prophecies and still is, especially since Ritualists have earned what little identity they have outside of spirits by horning in on Air Magic quality spells.

Many people have their theories, but the less and less open dialogue gets with Anet the more their theories seem to be sound and getting closer to the truth. Gaile doesn't have all the answers, and many people are getting unnecessarily frustrated with her when she'd probably in all likelihood rather log in, finish her three quests or one mission and then get back to other things rather than try to fully understand the PVP point of view.

Ultimately the PVP side does require high maintenance and balance tweaking Anet may not be capable or willing to put energy into anymore, and GW2 aside (which really DOES NOT have enough details for anyone to make any judgement calls), the evidence is leaning in that direction, between the release of Nightfall as well as how the 'streaming technology' is not being taken advantage of in it's most efficient form with small tweaks only, the state of HA, delayed promises regarding GvG that has become a pattern of late and numerous other small issues that all add up.

So I'll admit that I among others, will be looking for greener pastures regarding pure PvP later this year. And your skill level or overall time spent in Guild Wars PVP doesn't change that hard fact. It's not a childish threat of 'Anet will lose a customer if it doesn't change it teh way I liek it

' anymore, but rather 'It's been fun, but we're parting ways for greener pastures at least until you become worth my time again with either fresh robust PVP focus, or closer to something that pleasantly surprises me if not closer to where I think you should be.'

It's best to just leave it at that, uninstall and move on. One of your guildies might point out how things have improved sometime later and you'll have to weigh their judgement against why you left or at least played less in the first place.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 25, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

I think that for the most part, people who likes to play PvP type gamers play FPS and RTS. Their perception (the PvPers) is that MMO and RPGs are for pacifists, and people with no skill. Generally speaking, that perception is not too far off the mark (about the pacifist part anyway). Most people playing MMORPG with PvP elements prefer to out-number, out-level, out-gear, (or even out Build) their opponent, rather than to out-skill/out-smart them.

(Not to say that FPS & RTS players are more l33t. Most are scrubs and 13 yo haxors of the greatest magnitude)

But for the majority, the pacifists in MMORPGs, they simply hate dying. They are *drawn* to RPGs in general because there are so little "deaths" in comparison to all the other games. The fear of death is so irrationally strong that they loath to play PvP of any format, or can only handle it in tiny doses.

A-Net tried to break this, thinking if you build it they will come. After Prophecies they probably got a good dose of reality. Is the market there? Not unless ANet makes the market. I think the numbers told them otherwise.

They are *really* trying to bring people into PvP. They created simpler PvP formats with every release. In Factions they bought in AB, which is very successful for FORCING people try it out; to feel what its like to fight against other people maybe for the first time *every* beyond Microsoft Hearts. In NF they brought in HvH in the hopes that perhaps some people are not use to playing cooperatively and wish to "duel".

All that is fine and dandy, and nice try. However, the biggest hurdle, one which they probably will never overcome is the knowledge gap and learning curve required to actually do PvP properly in Guild Wars after 3 releases. Compared to FPS and RTS, the learning curve required is much *much* bigger. This is made only worse by its veterans keep leaving, and few are willing to teach or write guides. So Anet hired someone to write it for them.

That's my take. Can we get more PvP working? We got to bring our FPS friends to come and try it out at least, we all got them I think. But they are notorious for not even bother to read the manual behind the keymap. It's a hard problem with no easy solutions.

I think you really shined the coin on how things go GW wise, and PVE/PVP games incorporated together.

The biggest downfall I'd say with GW is how it first was presented or released.
Lack of OBS mode
Having to unlock skills to use in PVP

Furthermore yes many of the MMO players do indeed suck nutz when it comes to PVP, their only hope is to outgrind others with weapons+armor+lvl to score kills in games like WOW,Lineage....
Where as GW presented a much more balanced playing field, where voice coms are needed, 7 other players need to coordinate in order to score kills and basic button mashing doesn't mean you'll win. Also add to the list that builds which synergies usually outshine ones that don't; relying on 7 other people to hop on, and actually understand what to do so you can get a game going hurts the ease in which DECENT PVP play can be obtained.
After all this comes the need, or recently lack of blatant game balance.

I don't really know how or even if it's possible to make a decent profitable PVP RTS game without the monthly fees.
I will say however I would pay to play GW pvp if the rate was decent and the company had a good track record for continual game balances+features. ANET has to make the choice. Milk it as a PVE game, or push and pump money into developing a good PVP game. They have a foundation and I'm pretty sure they know what needs to be done. I just don't think there is a profitable amount of PVP orientated players which would be interested in GW on the WWW for this to happen.

Riotgear · Mar 25, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

However, the biggest hurdle, one which they probably will never overcome is the knowledge gap and learning curve required to actually do PvP properly in Guild Wars after 3 releases.

Don't forget the $120+ investment needed to get a skill bar that doesn't suck. Trading card games have similar phenomena, but part of a key part of GW's appeal was that it wasn't a cash sink like other MMOs, and now I'm having a very hard time recommending it to other people because it has turned into one.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 25, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Picking and choosing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I don't deny this at all. My point is, this area would turn up no matter the ammount of maintenance into PVP. When I went from being a PVE only player to casual PVP, I didn't know about imbalances and I didn't care. The guys at rank 3000 don't care that Jade Isle is imbalanced. You can combine them into one giant PVP community if you like, but that grouping is non-sensical as the needs of the mid-high end are so disparate from the low end set. The groups are not symbiotic, for the most they are completely ignorant of each other.

Specifically, to maintain the low-end PVP community, Arena Net needs to do nothing. It goes on and on, no matter how imbalanced it is.

To maintain the mid-high end PVP community it needs regular balance updates, fixes for things like Jade Isle, work on HA etc. It's high maintenance.

If Arena Net stopped the maintenance of the mid-high end (which I beleive they have), the rest keeps going on without a thought. The revenue stream from there, derives not from casual PVP, but from PVE. To those players, PVP is a side-issue, an interesting diversion you may say. I don't know anybody who says their main reason for playing the game is Random Arenas and rank 3000 GVG. Do you?

The thing is, in a strong PvP game, the top of the competitive scene will inspire the rest. I've guested for sub-1000 guilds, and in almost every case they've had at least some knowledge of the high-end competition. They know who iQ and QQ are, they know the difference between balanced and gimmick, and they have a general idea of whether the high end community is in a good or bad place.

I get the same thing in other games. I'll watch a video of a top player in Halo or Super Smash Brothers Melee and it inspires me to go play those games and try to improve. It's not because I think I'll ever be at the top of those games, but seeing the people who are at the top in action makes me that much more interested in playing.

It's difficult to say exactly how much effect the high-end community has on Guild Wars because GW's low-end and mid-range PvP are so weak. RA and HA remain pretty terrible, and while low-ranked GvG isn't all that bad, it's difficult for most casual guilds to get 8 willing players on consistently. If the PvP side of the game didn't suck for casual players, the competitive players would mean a lot more, because everyone looks up to them and their tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Also as a second question, I'm curious how you feel. You're a lot closer to the high end than I am Squidget, do you think, that Arena Net is making an honest effort to keep the mid-high end PVP experience a quality experience, or do you think it's a token effort?

This is going to be long, and I'm not even the best person to ask. I haven't played this game seriously for about a month, so most of this is going to be information from my time in alpha, more recent chats with devs and high-end players, and reading forums. Take it with a grain of salt.

I think the question is too simplistic, because it implies that Arenanet has a single overarching goal or vision for the PvP side of the game. Certainly there are individuals in Arenanet who care very much about improving PvP. The there are individuals like Gaile, who care about PvP abstractly, but really have no idea what the high-end PvP community needs to survive.

The thing to understand is that, working at Arenanet, when you want something done you have to do it yourself. We got reconnects because a programmer did them in his free time. We got the celestial tournament because Mike Gills wanted the PvP community to have something to do while waiting for the ATs. Mike is working on weekends and staying up late because he's had to organize everything himself, and deal with the questions and disputes from every single guild in the tournament. You don't get that kind of dedication from someone who doesn't care.

So the amount of effort that's being put into the PvP game varies on which employee you ask. There is no management figuring out priorities or assigning people to tasks. One employee will make a serious effort, while another will make a token effort, and there is nothing to unite the efforts of many employees into the large projects this game really needs.

So why, if there are still people in Arenanet who care about PvP, has the game been allowed to sink this low? A lot of people are quick to blame skill balance and to a point they're correct, but the real reason has more to do with the overall increase in player skill.

At release, Guild Wars was an incredibly unbalanced game with all kinds of broken skills. Spirit spam, Ether Renewal, chained ranger interrupts, Diversion, Fragility, and god knows what else, all waiting to break the meta. However, it took months for each of these imbalances to be discovered, and each balance update would have months before the next overpowered combination was discovered. Now, general build-making skill has improved and people know what to look for, so they find the broken combinations in weeks rather than months. Thus, we get the current meta where broken skill combinations run rampant, before and after balance updates. The game isn't that much worse than it was at release, but the community is much better at creating powerful gimmicks.

It's the same on a player skill level. Back in 'the day', you could throw weak spike teams into a panic with basic splits and collapses, allowing you to triumph in the face of a build advantage. Now, even the bad gimmick teams have a basic idea of what to send back and when, and everyone is familiar with split maps and builds. This makes outplaying a team much more difficult.

As players on both sides get better, build or map advantage means a lot more, and it eventually becomes overpowering. There are still a few teams capable of consistently outplaying Jade Isle gimmicks, but eventually the community will improve to the point where even the top teams can't do it.

It's much more difficult to balance a PvP game when your players know what they're doing. Every mistake Izzy makes if magnified tenfold, because the people who play his game are so much better at it than he is. The same number of employees are working to balance PvP, but the community breaks the game much faster and more effectively than it used too.

As the community continues to improve, the game will become shallower and Build Wars will be steadily more important. Even if all the broken skills were removed tomorrow, player improvement would continue to make build counters more and more relevant.

To tie this back into your question - Arenanet employees might be serious about making PvP work, but their own game is working against them. The PvP community needs more people working to get the same result, and we haven't gotten it. Trying to support a PvP game with constant balance patches is a losing battle, and I hope Arenanet will take that lesson to heart with the release of GW2.